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A Dialogue Between Ansarut Tawheed and Ansarut Thaghut In Sijn (Prison)

20 May 2011

By Al-Ikhwah Al-Mujahidun

This is a dialogue between me and 2 ansarut thaghut from the Densus 88 Deradicalization Section… This is the second dialogue between me and the two men… I write broadly of what was going on as a mudzakarah of 'ilm for me at a time when no one can be invited for a mudzakarah

They said: We come to you ustadz to have a discussion with you…

I said: A discussion must have a purpose of seeking the truth, not a formality to carry out the task from your leaders, let alone in the framework of harming the Muslim people. You should just leave your job, because in the Hereafter the leaders that you are now obeying will not help you, in fact you will be mutually cursing each other and claiming innocence…

Allah says: "The Day their faces will be turned about in the Fire, they will say, 'How we wish we had obeyed Allah and obeyed the Messenger.' And they will say, 'Our Lord, indeed we obeyed our masters and our dignitaries, and they led us astray from the [right] way. Our Lord, give them double the punishment and curse them with a great curse.'" (Al-Ahzab : 66-68).

"[And they should consider that] when those who have been followed disassociate themselves from those who followed [them], and they [all] see the punishment, and cut off from them are the ties [of relationship]. Those who followed will say, 'If only we had another turn [at worldly life] so we could disassociate ourselves from them as they have disassociated themselves from us.' Thus will Allah show them their deeds as regrets upon them. And they are never to emerge from the Fire."
(Al-Baqarah : 166-167).

All relationships will end, whether it is the official or any other relations, and in fact, even those followers and subordinates will later want to return to the world, not to do solat, zakat, sawm or others, but to be free from their leaders and from the legal acts that were previously upheld .

We will not be forever in this world, we will definitely be returning to Allah. Today, the government is in power in this world and they are feeling upright, but someday it all will go away and there, only Allah Rules…

I, in this weak condition, where you can kill me or cut my body in pieces as you like, but I am honest and I do not want to deceive myself and to deceive you, I am not a bootlicker, I do not care who you are, so I am conveying it…

They said:
Ustadz, aren't we alike… There is no difference… We also declare the shahadah of laa ilaaha illallaah muhammad rasulullah, we perform solat, zakat, sawm, hajj and others… So why say different…?!!

I said:
We are different sir, I am different from you and the government…

They said:
What's different?

I said:
The difference between us is not on the solat, zakat, sawm and hajj, because you and the government do not forbid those… But the difference between us is on the laa ilaaha illallaah

They said
: There is no difference, we also declare laa ilaaha illallaah muhammad rasulullah… There is no god besides Allah… So why the difference???

I said:
The laa ilaaha illallaah is not just in the utterance, but it contains implications and consequences, in which the essence is worshiping Allah and avoiding thaghut, just as He says:

And We certainly sent into every nation a messenger, [saying], "Worship Allah and avoid Thaghut."
(An-Nahl : 36).

So the meaning of laa ilaaha illallaah is worshiping Allah and avoiding thaghut, whereas you and the government are instead upholding the law of thaghut and the loyalty to them…

They said: Is the word "thaghut" mentioned in the verse?

I answered:
Yes, it was mentioned "Worship Allah and avoid Thaghut!"

They asked:
What surah and verse was that?

I answered: An-Nahl 36… To be clear let me describe, Allah says:

"And We sent not before you any messenger except that We revealed to him that, 'There is no deity except Me, so worship Me.'"
(Al-Anbiyaa : 25).

This verse explains that the laa ilaaha illallaah was revealed to every apostle, so this kalimah is the core of the teachings of Allah which they (the apostles) missionized…

Then, Allah explains the meaning of the content of laa ilaaha illallaah in surah An-Nahl 36:

"And We certainly sent into every nation a messenger, [saying], 'Worship Allah and avoid Thaghut.'"

So it is not simply the utterance and oral declaration, but its consequence is to avoid from worshiping and being loyal to the thaghut, and to worship only Allah…

In fact, Allah also says in surah Al-Baqarah 256:

"So whoever disbelieves in Thaghut and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it."

Here Allah explains that people are said to be holding the laa ilaaha illallaah which is a very strong handhold, when they are kafir and disobedient towards tahghut and having iman towards Allah…

And Rasulullah sallallahu'alaihi wa sallam said:

"Whoever utters laa ilaaha illallaah and he is disobedient against everything else worshiped besides Allah, then their bloods and properties are secured…"
(HR. Muslim)

Here, he also determined the status of one's Islam by the utterance of laa ilaaha illallaah, accompanied by an attitude of disobedient towards everything else that is worshiped besides Allah, i.e. disobedient towards thaghut

And the ulama's have also agreed that the declaration of shahadah has no benefit without the disobedient towards thaghut. Al-Imam Sulaiman Ibnu Abdillah Ibnu Muhammad Ibnu Abdil Wahhab rahimahullah said in the book Taisir Al-Aziz Al-Hamid which was quoted by Sheikh Ali Al Khudlair, said:

"Merely declaring the kalimah shahadah without knowing its meaning and without practicing its consequences in the form of a commitment towards tawheed, leaving shirk akbar and disobedient towards thaghut, then indeed it (the declaration of shahadah) is not beneficial, based on the ijma (consensus)."

See Al-Baqarah 256, the saheeh hadith Muslim and also the ijma' of the ulama's, all states that disobedient towards thaghut is a prerequisite for one's Islam in front of Allah, which is one half of the meaning of laa ilaaha illallaah

One of them asked:
What is thaghut?

I said: Among the thaghuts is the artificial (man-made) law and the lawmakers, just as Allah SWT says in An-Nisa 60:

"Have you not seen those who claim to have believed in what was revealed to you, [O Muhammad], and what was revealed before you? They wish to refer legislation to Thaghut, while they were commanded to reject it; and Satan wishes to lead them far astray."

In this verse, Allah mentions that the law which is made as the referenced law other than what Allah sent down is thaghut, which we are commanded to reject. Whereas, this government are instead implementing it and you are as its enforcement devices.

Whereas, when people turn away from the law which was revealed to Rasulullah and instead refer to the earlier law of Allah which had been superseded, that are in the Torah and Gospel, they are ruled as kafir. Then, what about the people who are instead applying the man-made law??? Ibnu Katsir rahimahullah said in Al-Bidayah Wan Nihayah juz 13 pg 119:

"Whoever forsakes the standard law which was revealed to Muhammad Ibnu Abdillah, and instead refers to another law in the form of the teachings (of Allah) which have already been abrogated (nasakh), then he is kafir. Then, how on earth about the people who are referring to the law of ALYASA and they are prioritizing it over the law of Allah? They are kafir based on the ijma' of the Muslimeen."

Alyasa is Yasiq, the book of legislation made by Genghis Khan, which he summarized some from Islam, some from Christianity, some from Judaism, some from the people of bid'ah and some from his own thoughts. This is the same as what is used by the government here, in which a part is from Islam such as those used in the Religious Court, a part is from Christianity (Dutch) i.e. the KUHP (Penal Code), a part is from the product of the Parliament. And that is what you use sir...

One of them asked:
How about shirk, what is it?

I answered: Shirk is the associating of Allah (with partners), and in relation to this discussion, it is the shirk on the law. Allah says:

"Unquestionably, His is the creation and the command."
(Al-A'raf : 54).

In this verse, Allah explains that creating and commanding (regulating) are the specific rights of Allah, since mankind are the creations of Allah, then the legal rules which are enforced upon them must also be the rules of Allah.

If someone believes that there is other creator besides Allah, then he is mushrik kafir, so the same goes when someone believes that there is other who is authorized to make the law besides Allah, then he is also mushrik kafir, because Allah does not allow any share within His legal rights. This is as He says:

"He shares not His legislation with anyone."
(Al-Kahfi : 26).

And if someone gives loyalty to the man-made law, then he is already associating Allah, whereas the lawmaker has positioned himself as god, just as He says:

"They have taken their priests and monks as lords besides Allah , and [also] the Messiah, the son of Mary. And they were not commanded except to worship one God; there is no deity except Him. Exalted is He above whatever they associate with Him." (At-Tawbah : 31)

In this verse Allah branded the Christians with some convictions:

They deify their priests and monks
They worship their priests and monks
They are mushrik
Their priests and monks have positioned themselves as gods

In a hasan hadith, the riwaayah of At-Tirmidzi, Rasulullah recited this verse (At-Tawbah : 31) in front of ‘Adiy Ibnu Hatim -who at that time was Christian and later he embraced Islam- and when he heard the verse with those convictions, ‘Adiy Ibnu Hatim said:

"We don't worship them"
, Rasulullah said: "Don't they make halal what Allah forbids and then you take part in making them halal? And don't they make haram what Allah allows, then you take part in making them haram??" Then ‘Adi Ibnu Hatim answered: "Yes…", then Rasulullah said: "That is the worship towards them."

So, fidelity towards the man-made law is a worship towards the lawmakers and is an act of shirk. And that is your job sir…

One of them said:
Meaning what's included here are the parliament, judges, public prosecutors, police, military… and of course the supreme president… If such is the case, Tifatul Sembiring also belongs there as he takes part in the lawmaking…

I answered:
Yes, it is so…

He said:
What ustadz said is true, but we're in Indonesia… how about people of other religions…??

I said:
If you already know that it's true, then it should be followed, because if only knowing or believing, there is no point! Abu Thalib also believed that the teachings of Rasulullah is true, but he did not want to follow him…

In the issues of people of other religions… Islam does not force the kafirs to embrace Islam, in Islam there is such term as the kafir dzimmi, namely the kafir who want to submit to live under the shade of the State with the obligation of paying the jizya, imposed on adult men, once a year, in the amount of approximately 1 dinar (4.25 gram of gold) with assurance on life, properties and family in return. A much smaller amount compared to any tax taken by this government today, from the motor tax to the car, land, house and other taxes…

Then again, I am not inviting towards something which I myself have not been able to do, because it is not the duty of a particular individual, but the duty of the ummah collectively. But I am inviting you to it, at least by the realization of the tawheed by leaving your jobs… there are still many other sources of rizq (sustenance)…

One of them said:
Actually there are similarities between us … look at the traffic rules… The red light… How is it in Islam?!!

I answered: Different sir… We are not the same as this government, we want Allah as the legal reference, while this government has other references… Even the books are different… It should be known, that in Islam there is a standard law which is predefined which is called shar'ie rules and there is also idariy (procedural) rules, i.e. problems that develop with age which are not specifically regulated, but Islam provides the general rules as a guide, where later, its implementation depends on the leader by considering the benefits to the Muslims…

There, the subject of the red light is included in the idariy rules… even if there are similarities in the results, but the reference sources are different… Isn't when the Christian people practice honesty -e.g.- their religion teaches them to be honest, isn't with that of their honesty they are not called Muslim, although there is a similarity in the recommendation to be honest? This is because of the different references and submissions.

Therefore, in matters which are standard, this government refers to the man-made law…

In Islam, in the case of theft, when the conditions are met, the hand will be cut off, but here it refers to the article 362 and 363 KUHP (Penal Code), i.e. imprisonment.

Robbery in Islam is punishable with hirabah punishment, could be crucified or killed, or the hand and foot are cut off crossways - or exiled, but here it will be charged with article 365 KUHP, thus the penalty is imprisonment.

Murder in Islam has its own penalization, but here it will fall under article 340 KUHP, if the killing is proven, it will be imprisonment for life or death penalty, if not planned then a lighter article is imposed.

There are penalties for Zina in Islam, even if both parties are willing adults, but here if both are willing and adult and the female does not have a husband, it is legal and it has no sanction, in fact if done in specific locations there will be a tax for it…

So, it's different sir… Not to mention other cases, because the rulings of all the problems in Islam should refer to the law of Allah, just as He says:

"And in anything over which you disagree - its ruling is [to be referred] to Allah."
(Ash-Shuraa : 10).

They said:
Since we are not so proficient, then we can not argue, but if we bring someone with the same level as ustadz, maybe he can respond, because it could only your interpretation, others might have different interpretations…

I said: What's clear, I've explained my principles, it's upon them that I live and die, but I am still inviting you to leave the police because it is shirk which cancels the deeds…

They said:
We will always remember the invitation from ustadz

*This dialogue is actually long, but that was the summarization.

PolRes of West Jakarta
Aman Abdurrahman


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